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:::: Formal CBMART COnference :::: -------------------------- February 5, 1987 - Charles Brannon Thursday 10:00 PM to Midnight EST Charles Brannon is a Project Manager at EPYX Software, where he works on Game Design and works with artists who design sprites and hi-res screens, and coordinates the work of staff programmers and freelance programmers. If you're curious about how a major software company puts together a program or if you'd like to ask about programming opportunities, read this Transcript of the CBMART Formal COnference. Before EPYX, Charles was the Program Editor at COMPUTE! Publications, where he wrote such programs as the SpeedScript word processor, Sprite Magic (a sprite editor), and Ultrafont (custom character editor). He has programmed in a variety of languages on the 64, VIC, PET, Amiga, Atari 800, Atari ST and IBM. Here follows the edited Transcript of this Formal COnference with Special Guest Charles Brannon of EPYX Software. Jake Lund, Sysop was the Moderator for this CBMART COnference. The COnference has just been announced that it is starting -- 7:04:33 PM PST Thursday, February 5, 1987 Job User ID Nod Ch Tlk Handle --- ----------- --- -- --- ------------ 21 71470,251 CVK 18 Geoffrey Whitaker 44 76703,4037 SEA 18 Buffer 60 76526,711 BUT 18 Ray Bowman 65 76004,237 SMO 18 Jeff J. (Elec Arts) 87 72030,145 HOO 18 ken 92 70007,2376 SMO 18 Charles Brannon 95 76337,3532 RCH 18 Bob Clemens 155 76703,3051 GNC 18 Jake (Moderator (18,Charles Brannon) Great! (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Straightening tie, or lack thereof. (18,Jake (Moderator) You've probably seen the messages about the conventions. Type a ? for a question, a ! for a comment. I'm pleased to introduce Charles Brannon from EPYX Software. Chaz, do you want to say anything at the beginning? ga (18,Charles Brannon) Well, this is my first on-line conference, and I can tell you it's a lot easier than giving any kind of public speech. I've been at Epyx for about 6 months now, and really love it there. Formerly, I was Program Editor for COMPUTE! Publications. Since I have only been at Epyx for a half-year, I hope I can still answer any questions anybody has. GA! (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) Geoffrey first, then Jeff J. Geoff W. ga (18,Geoffrey Whitaker) I have written a word/puzzle/game. It is very interactive, graphics and all ML. How do I go about submitting such a thing? What market? And if anyone liked it, how would I know what a reasonable "deal" is? I'M CONFUSED. (18,Charles Brannon) Ok... (18,Charles Brannon) First of all, please request an Author Submission Form. Send your request to:-- Epyx, Inc. 600 Galveston Dr. Redwood City, CA 94063 The Author submission form lets us get a few fact about your product, but also includes a line for you to sign. This is a non-confidential disclosure that protects Epyx and allows us to review submissions without someone else claiming that we stole their idea when we were working on the same concept or were negotiating to acquire the same idea. Basically, your original work is always protected by copyright law, however, and we of course would honor this. If you know a lot of people would like to play your game, then you have a good chance of selling it, as long as it's really unique and fun. The Author Submission form contains a section describing just what Epyx is looking for, what machines we support, and how to send in your submission. I encourage you to go ahead and send it in. Next question... (18,Jake (Moderator) Follow-up for Geoffrey. A question? (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff J. Did you have a question? (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) What do you see as the necessary elements of a good game, the "formula" for a hit, if you will? (18,Charles Brannon) That's a broad question, isn't it? (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Yes. But it's a question. Make it a hit EPYX game, that's narrower. ga (18,Charles Brannon) Anyway, let me try. What I personally like to see in a game is a complete, small "universe," containing characters, objects, and attributes. The world should be programmable and interactive. Examples of this game include simulations, of course. Current Epyx hits are of course our "video olympics games," such as Summer Games, Winter Games, etc. But we are also excited by our simulations such as Sub Battle Simulator and Destroyer. ga (18,ken) ! (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ? (18,Bob Clemens) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff gets a follow-up. Then Ken and Bob. Jeff, ga. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) How many of your products are designed by Epyx staff vs. outside submissions? ga (18,Charles Brannon) Most of our "big hits" are designed and programmed by in-house teams consisting of from one to two to six programmers. Multi-event games are especially effective for assigning to more than one programmer. We are also looking to expand our program of acquistions. More and more, though, in order to grow (we hope to double our staff and business by next year) we need to rely on contract programming houses. We design the product in-house, write a detailed specification, and try to qualify an outside developer. Sometimes a developer will do all the versions (translations), other times we'll have in-house contractors or other developers do the translation. We're also trying to do more parallel development of machine versions, even with all the attendant hassles. GA (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) A reminder: followup Qs should be on the same topic as the original Q. (18,Jake (Moderator) Ken: you're next. Then Bob and Jeff. ga Ken. (18,ken) Just a quick comment, about a year ago I bought the game 'Barbie' for my daughters, ages 3 and 5, the programmer(s) of that game should be commended for a program that a small child can enjoy and use thoroughly, also the voice synthesis is astounding! ga (18,Charles Brannon) Wow! You really like Barbie. (18,ken) well, they do. (18,Charles Brannon) Barbie wasn't a real great seller, and many people think that it was a weak product. As a matter of fact we just got a letter complaining of the implicit sexism in the game (Barbie sits around waiting for Ken to decide where they'll go, so she rushes out to get ready for it.) However, this is the nature of the Barbie "world." The voice synthesis was only possible by the exceptional speed of the Vorpal fast loading technology which give us a speed 25 times faster than a normal 1541! Jeff, didn't you used to work for Epyx? I thought I heard that you worked on GI Joe. Do you have any comments on Barbie? ga (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Okay, I fess up. I was there when the Computer Activity Toys were being developed. I even auditioned for the role of Ken. (didn't get it, though). I wanted to hear your opinions on why GI Joe is still selling well, and Barbie and Hot Wheels are gone. What have the customers said. I don't get to see their letters. GA. (18,Jake (Moderator) Wait... Bob gets the next question. Then we'll come back to Jeff. OK? Bob, ga. (18,Charles Brannon) Fine. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Okay, I'll push. (18,Bob Clemens) Charles, your mentioned earlier a game called "Sub Battle Simulator." Is this a new product? Can you tell us about it? ga (18,Charles Brannon) Oops... Yes, and I really can't say much about it, since I wasn't supposed to mention it at all. Think of it as the ultimate sub game, what GATO would like to be one day. (But I can't say no mo') (18,Bob Clemens) I hope it won't be quite as complex as "Destroyer." ga (18,Charles Brannon) Destroyer is that kind of game. (18,Jake (Moderator) OK. Jeff's next. (18,Charles Brannon) Okay, do you want me to comment on GI Joe? (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) I just wanted to hear some of the feedback on GI Joe. Just as Barbie could be accused of being sexist, GI Joe was VERY violent. It worried me some. (18,Charles Brannon) I see... It's really quite simple. (I think) GI Joe does well becaause there is a resurgence of interest in military themes these days. All cartoons are becoming very military-oriented (such as the war robot shows). And of course, the GI Joe character and his co-horts are making an enormous comeback. The Saturday morning cartoon show is there too. As for the violence, it is also inseparable from the GI Joe characters. It's a choice to do GI Joe as a computer game with all the attending violence (all in fun, though) or not do GI Joe at all. Right? (18,J. L. Schroeder) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff: follow-up on GI Joe? Then JL. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Yep. I admit to occasionally going overboard. How many hits can a character take from a flame thrower before he has to "surrender"? ga (18,Charles Brannon) As for Barbie... Barbie sells mainly to girls, and there still isn't a good market there yet. (18,Jake (Moderator) J.L., your turn. ga (18,J. L. Schroeder) Sir, I love my 64, but it's been around for quite a while and the market is quite full of software. Considering that the machine must have a limited market life, how much longer will 64 software development be profitable? (18,Jake (Moderator) Good question. How long will the 64 last? (18,Charles Brannon) Indeed... I think the main reason that the 64 sold over 6 million units was that the video game thing was never a fad, but was misrepresented as one. (Along with home computers in general.) So business-types pulled out in a panic, but the desire to play colorful games on your TV set never went away. There were no other game machines as good as the 64, so the 64 became primarily the new video game machine. The 64K of memory, keyboard, and disk drive allowed whole new genres and qualities of games to develop. However, now everyone is realizing that the demand for video games never went away, and now we have Sega and Nintendo, as well as the new Atari game machine. And the 64 is being cut-off from the top of the market by low priced PC and Apple clones, while the game business is being eaten by Japan and Atari. There's no good place for it anymore, and now the $500 Amiga is coming in. So the 64 may only have a year or so left of good solid profits. That's if the existing base continues to buy. Studies show that most software purchases are made by new computer owners, so very soon now the 64 market may really dry up. It's a little scary for all the software game makers, but we have a huge new wave of IBM business (in the homes) with the cheap clones, and the Apple. Also, we're considering doing some game carts. again for VCS, Sega, Nintendo. (18,Bob Clemens) ! (18,Jake (Moderator) J.L., do you have a follow-up question? Then Bob's next. (18,J. L. Schroeder) yes. (18,Charles Brannon) BTW... I want to make clear that I am expressing my own opinions, here, not necessarily those of Epyx. ga (18,Jake (Moderator) JL, ga (18,J. L. Schroeder) As a recent programming grad I am concerned about the future for PC oriented graphics personnel. GA (18,Charles Brannon) Well, there will NEVER be enough *GOOD* programmers, and no matter how many programmers there are, there will be a high demand for the best in the business. In the future, games and other software will become incredibly complicated and sophisticated, and will take more programmers more time. But is that your worry. I may not understand. GA (18,J. L. Schroeder) Well, how can a new programmer get a start in a field that is already more advanced than most schools are capable of teaching? (18,Charles Brannon) I see. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ! (18,Charles Brannon) Well, most programmers in our business are entirely self-taught, at least in the areas of programming that are applicable to what we do. ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Bob, ga. (18,Bob Clemens) OK (18,Jake (Moderator) Then Jeff. (18,Bob Clemens) I was curious about your predictions of a $500 Amiga. Also do you feel the C128 has a better future than the C64? ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Ahem... (18,Charles Brannon) Isn't the $500 Amiga public knowledge yet? (18,Bob Clemens) Not to me. (18,Charles Brannon) I'm not aware of any confidentiality disclosures I've signed, so I can tell you about it. (18,Jake (Moderator) Let me interject that some software publishers are saying that the 64 will be around through the 1990s just because of the large installed base. (18,Charles Brannon) You know, that is still possible. The 64 looks like it could last as long as an Apple, as long as it retains a valid identity. (18,Jake (Moderator) And the $500 Amiga is a solid rumor. Jeff J. might have something to say about that. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ! (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff. ga (18,Charles Brannon) GA (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) As for $500 Amigas, I can't talk, but I can GRIN! Do I get a ? now? (18,Jake (Moderator) Yes, ga. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) OK. Supporting Segas, Nintendos, VCS's, PC's, ST's, C64, Apples, etc. must be a royal headache to write for them all. What is the order of your CPU priority? Which machines will generate most of your income in the next year or two? (18,Charles Brannon) Who knows, but it depends on the kind of game. We see the PC market as becoming nearly as big for us as the 64 was formerly. PC and Apple combine surely equal our 64 success. For fast coin-op type games we'd first go for the 64, and look at Sega and Nintendo for those kinds of games. For simulations, things requring keyboards and disk drives, we're talking more IBM and Apple, as well as 64. It also depends on the expertise of the developer. We'll lead on their favorite machine, and maybe get someone else to do the ports (translations). Also, the more developers you have working, the more ports you get, so we feel we could support a lot of machines over a long enough period of time. ga (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) me next. Then Jeff J. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) I have a quick follw up. (18,Jake (Moderator) Charles, you said something about programmers being self-taught. Do you want to elaborate on that? Is programming school a dead-end? ga (18,Charles Brannon) By no means. It's just that the best in the industry have been around for more than five or six years, and there were no schools for microcomputer programming (hacking). There still aren't. However... In the future, we'll have to rely more on structured programming and sophisticated data structures and algorithms. Too much academic programming can ruin a program that needs fast performance on a machine with limited resources and a market pressure for games which need to be "hacked out" and gotton on the shelves in a few months. But when we're using 68000 machines and trying to best each other, and when we get into parallel processing, CDI, and more, we'll have to program more like the "Big boys." But you can still teach yourself these things quicker, I think, and willing to work hard. (18,J. L. Schroeder) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff, your're next. ga. Then JL. Job User ID Nod Ch Tlk Handle --- ----------- --- -- --- ------------ 21 71470,251 CVK 18 Geof 44 76703,4037 SEA 18 Buffer 60 76526,711 BUT 18 Ray Bowman 65 76004,237 SMO 18 Jeff J. (Elec Arts) 92 70007,2376 SMO 18 Charles Brannon 95 76337,3532 RCH 18 Bob Clemens 155 76703,3051 GNC 18 Jake (Moderator 160 74746,11 DTB 18 J. L. Schroeder (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) As a follow up to my previous topic, do you see the 16-bit machines as a major home market. If so, which will win the ST-GS-Amiga wars? ga (18,Charles Brannon) I think the ST will be killed, flat out, by the new cheap Amiga. The GS will succeed mainly as a $500 upgrade for the ][e, but it performs so badly compared to the Amiga. Only if Commodore suffers more typical bad luck with the Amiga will it fail to blow away the low end of the market. Ahem. Whew! By the way, Commodore needs lots more advertising to sew this up. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Is this opinion held by Epyx as a whole? (18,Charles Brannon) And no, I'm more of an Amiga fanatic than many of our people. The marketing people are cautiously optimistic about Amiga sales, but we're particularly eager to take advantage of the hugely growing home PC base. No matter that, the PC (And to a lesser extent, the Apple,) will be the "safe" buy for most home people. But the Amiga will succeed like the 64 did, as a mega game machine that can do incredibly useful things as well. But who really knows? ga (18,Jake (Moderator) JL, you're next. ga (18,J. L. Schroeder) Dueling topics here, huh? Charles, I have my degree in "Big boys" programming and am self-taught in the fields I enjoy [6502 ML and C]. Where do you suggest I place my future self-teaching emphasis in order to be a good jump on the needs of the market? ga (18,Charles Brannon) Ready? (18,Charles Brannon) The best way is to get publishd, so you can do projects. But before that, the best way to learn what we want is to work as a contractor. You can sign up with a recruitment or placing agency, or just send your resume to all the software companies, and try to get qualified as a contractor. You'll make a fair living, and the work will be really ugh. But nobody wants to to pay for your education, so you may need to practice by writing some large-scale commercial programs, even if you never get it published. Submit it anyway to lots of companies (including Epyx.) By the way, Epyx is not just a games company anymore. We're getting into personal publishing and printing, personal productivity, and who knows what else. But always for the personal (home) market. ga (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) JL: follow-up? (18,J. L. Schroeder) Don't get me wrong, sir, I'm not looking for a job right now. I have a good one but, what will give me an edge education-wise in tomorrow's job market? (18,Charles Brannon) But that's just the best way to learn. On the job, or pretending to be on the job. ga (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ? (18,Charles Brannon) Oh, that's a question. Like I said, the only way to learn programming is to program. Design new software, write it, and re-write it. Submit it if you like, but mainly try to live up to the standards of today's market. You could get together with another programmer and try team programming, which is really necessary these days (just because of limited time, if nothing else). However, it's something like breaking into the music business or publishing a fiction novel. Or becoming an actor. You may have to be lucky. But there's always that and be willing to work HARD. (18,Jake (Moderator) Lucky or talented. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Lucky AND talented. (18,J. L. Schroeder) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff, you're next. ga. Then JL again. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) OK. I found your development process interesting. What do you see as the drawbacks/advantages of spec-ing then contracting a programmer? Shouldn't the programmers have creative input into the design? ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Good question. (18,Charles Brannon) It is important that the spec have enough room for the programmer to be able to breathe some of his own life into it. But some very good programmers are not good designers, nor are they good artists. We can use their top-notch programming ability and supplement it with our design expertise. We concentrate on good designs and employees capable of good design, but any program has to grow as it goes along. On one of my projects, the pre-design, then program concept is working well. The spec is so detailed, and so effective that we're screaming through the time it takes to create a whole new printing product (3 month development time!) It doesn't work for our best hits, though. Things like our Winter Games are loosely spec'd then programmed in house by programmers and designers. Also, sometimes we'll pay for a developer to create a design for our top-line market needs, we'll modify it, work with them, and have them do it. But they really need to feel they are having significant creative input. But we usually can always do better art! ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff: follow-up? (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) JL is next, but first, I've noticed that there are a number of people just listening in, if anyone has questions, just type a ? You'll come up after JL. JL, ga. (18,Jake (Moderator) He's gone. (18,dennis sherren) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) Dennis, ga. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ? (18,dennis sherren) First I'd like to say that I've enjoyed Speedscript and get much use out of it. Now my question, do you care to comment on the copy protection controversy? ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Aha! The first question about SpeedScript. (18,Charles Brannon) Thanks for the kind words about SpeedScript. It was my first real workable design, and the only one I programmed all on my own. It's hard to write a good program that can be typed in, but those folks at COMPUTE! continue to do it. OK. Copy protection. Here's my own (not Epyx's) opinion: There are a lot of pirates, and they know and believe that they are stealing they are stealing software. They may not know that they're software. They may not know that they're depriving the programmers of their royalty, and they may feel that it's okay to burn "big business" (It's not really all that big, though). However, the whole piracy test is a morality test for society. I'm going out on a limb here, but I think most people would steal anything worth $50-$1000 if they knew they could get away with it and have absolutely no real chance of being caught or punished in any way. Who would deny it without being hypocritical? But sometimes you feel you have to pay for it to "vote" for a good product, and make sure that the companies will continue to publish. Besides, how else do you get the manual? In the future, even great self-documenting software will be only partially useful without a good manual, so a pirated copy of software is really just a demo copy. How about that? ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Dennis: a follow-up question? (18,dennis sherren) I agree that pirating is deplorable. But I'd like a backup to protect against a bad disk. Are hardware dongles a workable compromise? ga Job User ID Nod Ch Tlk Handle --- ----------- --- -- --- ------------ 21 71470,251 CVK 18 Geof 44 76703,4037 SEA 18 Buffer 65 76004,237 SMO 18 Jeff J. (Elec Arts) 66 74326,3212 QAM 18 dennis sherren 92 70007,2376 SMO 18 Charles Brannon 155 76703,3051 GNC 18 Jake (Moderator (18,Charles Brannon) Wouldn't it be tempting to "pirate" durable goods like a car or a stereo, if a "matter duplicator" existed? (18,Buffer) <smile> (18,Charles Brannon) But anyway, dongles are really expensive compared to a $1.00 or less diskette and a manual in a cardboard box. We need a good margin to make any money at all, since distributors like a big cut. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ! (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff: you're next, when Chaz is done. (18,Charles Brannon) ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff, ga. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Dongles are a worse solution, they are too expensive, too easily lost, easier for pirates to crack the security code, and a bigger nuisance to the user but we are looking for more creative solutions to the software theft (piracy is too romantic a term for it) problem. Now for my actual question. What are your favorite games, Charles? (18,Buffer) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) MULE (18,Charles Brannon) Well, you got me there. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) (grin) (18,Charles Brannon) Yes, Jake's right. I love MULE. I like any good coin-op game, for about a week. For games to have lasting value for me, and if it weren't for Jake getting me interested in Mule (it takes some learning) I play it either. Maybe if I get to design the kind of game I really crave then I'll love it and play it. But I haven't figured that out yet. ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff: follow-up? Then Buffer/Betty. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Might I just toss in a cheap plug: if you liked MULE, try Robot Rascals. :) ga (18,Jake (Moderator) OK, that's a plug (as Johnny Carson says). Betty, ga. (18,Charles Brannon) (I don't have a 64 at home anymore. Just Amiga) (18,Buffer) Thank you Jake. Charles, a bit ago we talked about "piracy" and the need for a manual. I'm an old-fashioned programmer and never did go for icons, windows, menus galore, but that seems to be the fad now -- user friendly, etc. If a Manual becomes a necessity to run software, then are we getting away from "user friendly", etc.? ga (18,Charles Brannon) OK. The neat thing is that a really powerful kind of software may have hundreds of features, out of which most users may use 10 of. I've seen WordStar used a a simple text editor, or a form letter generator. Lotus as an adding machine, or a programmable language. You can figure out good software all by itself, but to really understand it and make sure you learn it right, the manual (if it's a good manual--most aren't) is a necessity. Some publishers may want to refrain from total online documentation just because of piracy. Plus, it's easier to look at a manual while you're using the product than to toggle between help screens and the product you're using. ga (18,Buffer) Thanks, Charles, of course, those are my thoughts but didn't think it was the current trend. ga (18,Charles Brannon) And though every user uses only 10% of a product, each user uses a different 10%! So keep it all there. The current trend is to make a computer session more like interacting with a tangible model of the real world. Hence "objects" like icons, "touching" things with your mouse-driven hand. Menus are different. They're just a way of condensing a lot of textual commands into a small amount of screen space, not cluttering your screen until you need them (pull-down menus, that is). ga (18,Buffer) Thanks, Charles. Jake, ga. (18,Jake (Moderator) Nobody's next. Steve N, Steve S, Mason, any questions? (18,Steve Nye) ! (18,Jake (Moderator) Steve N, ga. (18,Steve Nye) This is more an observation than a question or comment. Many of the innovations in auto tech came about because of the experiences of the early drag racers, who were considered outside norms of society, the same can be said of aviation and the gypsy barnstormers of early days, is it not possible that the piracy that has gone on is not so much driven by the desire to own something for free but more by the keen interest of individuals in EVERY facet of how this new technology works. I know a lot of folks who crack just to find out how it is done and don't even keep the copies. ga (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) !!! (18,Charles Brannon) You also want to own everything, and can't possibly afford it. Most pirates copy it all and hardy every get around to using it. They like to own $10,000 worth of stuff, but if they never use it, it's worth $0. The problem is when these crackers give it to people who otherwise would buy the software because they can't crack the protection. You tell two friends who tell two friends, and so on, and so on... ga (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) Attention!... only 20 minutes left in the CO, so one question per person. No follow-ups. Jeff J., ga 8:38:54 PM PST Thursday, February 5, 1987 Job User ID Nod Ch Tlk Handle --- ----------- --- -- --- ------------ 21 71470,251 CVK 18 Geof W. 44 76703,4037 SEA 18 Buffer 65 76004,237 SMO 18 Jeff J. (Elec Arts) 66 74326,3212 QAM 18 dennis sherren 92 70007,2376 SMO 18 Charles Brannon 95 73765,1444 DCI 18 Bob 110 70366,1316 NAS 18 Steve Nye 150 76703,4244 DLQ 18 steve 155 76703,3051 GNC 18 Jake (Moderator (18,Jake (Moderator) If you have a ? or !, put it in now. ga (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Charles answered that pretty well. Crackers are not the problem they are a symptom of a bad solution to the problem of software theft. The problem is people wanting something for nothing because they think they can get away with it. Ultimately, it is suicidal, as it was with Atari 800 users. ga (18,Bob) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) K-mart red-light special in aisle 4. (18,Charles Brannon) What? (18,Charles Brannon) I think that if there was a good solution for piracy with the present system that somebody would have thought of it, given the number of people working on it and in this world of ours. ga (18,Bob) ! (18,Jake (Moderator) Bob, ga. (18,Bob) I think most software prices are too high (in the phonograph industry, in its early years), in others words, ga (18,Charles Brannon) Oh well, somebody had to say that. ga (18,dennis sherren) ! (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ! (18,Charles Brannon) A comment about prices. I was involved in the "break even analysis" for the printing product I'm working on. But we couldn't charge $39 for it or we would make even less money. If we had the kind of volume as the record industry, we could sell software at similar prices. Just look at CDs. The same stuff on a different media, for $14 instead of $7. ga (18,Bob) ! (18,Jake (Moderator) Dennis, ga. (18,dennis sherren) Compared tp other forms of entertainment, quality software is worth the price !!! ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Dennis, ga. Then Jeff and Bob. (18,dennis sherren) Ok. My point is that quality software is worth the price. (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Last year, EA dropped the prices of most of its software to $14.95, (which means less than $10 at a discounter). Will Epyx be reducing its prices to similar levels? (18,Charles Brannon) I'm not doing the books at Epyx, so I can't understand how you can afford to sell stuff at $14.95. The distributors want so much of the profits, so you'd have to get them to take less. Programmers, staff, printing, etc. are at the same cost. But we do have a "valu-line" of older software at similar prices ($19.95) and if we can do mail order sales (very little so far) we can cut the prices signficantly, of course. ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Bob, then me. ga Bob. (18,Bob) Charles, some of your line was lost, what will you price your print program at? Also CDs are currently higher beacuse the manufacturing cost is higher. ga (18,Charles Brannon) I forget the exact amount. I think it is about $29. The manufact. cost is higher because the volume is not high enough. The plastic for CDS is cheap reject petroleum plastic, and the process of stamping it is the same. When demand gets high enough, the price will drop. It's the same in any business. And one day a piece of software will sell a million copies, so it can be sold for $5!!! ga (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) ! (18,Jake (Moderator) Charles: what advice would you give a budding programmer for the 64, IBM clone, whatever? ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff, you're next. (18,Charles Brannon) Advice about which machine to program for? I think you could do worse than write IBM programs. (18,Jake (Moderator) No... how to learn programming, how to make a million dollars, how to at least break even. Say you're talking to a 15-year old. ga (18,Charles Brannon) I talked about that earlier, in how you learn to write good stuff, and how it is a matter of luck and talent. But if you can be a contractor, you get ties with a company, and that leads to more contracts (and contracts), and you can eventually get a publisher for your masterpiece. But don't take too long to write it, or someone else will have done it before you! ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff, ga. Job User ID Nod Ch Tlk Handle --- ----------- --- -- --- ------------ 44 76703,4037 SEA 18 Buffer 65 76004,237 SMO 18 Jeff J. (Elec Arts) 92 70007,2376 SMO 18 Charles Brannon 95 73765,1444 DCI 18 Bob 110 70366,1316 NAS 18 Steve Nye 150 76703,4244 DLQ 18 steve 155 76703,3051 GNC 18 Jake (Moderator (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Another comment on the price of software. A hit record sells over a million copies, a hit program is lucky to break 100,000, and only if it gets rewritten three or four times, for the different CPU's. Just think what the record industry would be like if the Beatles had to rewrite and rerecord their songs with different instruments, etc, to play on different manufacturers' record players!! ga (18,Bob) ! (18,Steve Nye) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) Jeff: like a 33 vs a 45 RPM record? (18,Jake (Moderator) Bob, ga. (18,Bob) Quick note that the Beatles did mix everything in MONO and STEREO and some QUAD which we haven't heard yet. ga (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) That's just a manufacturing problem. They didn't have to play different instruments for the 45 versions. (18,Charles Brannon) But the 100,000 figure is far more telling. That would qualify as an Epyx hit. People who have been unreachable. 6 million 64s and 100,000 copies. It doesn't compute. ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Four minutes left in the CO. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) But the difference between Amiga "Bard's Tale" and Apple's is much greater. (18,Buffer) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) Betty, ga (18,Buffer) Charles, what is the figure for the highest selling game? Really 100,000? ga (18,Charles Brannon) Just about. Again, I haven't boned up on all the figures. Over a long life of a really good product, with lots of versions, you can get more. But who knows that we're losing to piracy? There's nobody pirating a book. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) 100,000 is GOLD in this industry. (18,Bob) ! (18,Jake (Moderator) Bob: ga (18,Bob) Charles: I'm a glutton for punishment, I buy about 1 major ($20-40) piece of s/ware a month; if the price was $5-10 that would rise exponentially! (18,Buffer) Thanks again. ga Jake. (18,Charles Brannon) But first you have to buy exponentially, before it could go to $5. Make sense? You can't afford to buy 10 times as much at current prices, but if there were 10 times as many people buying. (18,Bob) not to my wallet :( (18,Charles Brannon) Anybody have any theories why we're only selling 100,000 copies to 6,000,000 Com. 64s? Are they in the closet? ga (18,Steve Nye) ! (18,Bob) ! (18,Jake (Moderator) Steve N, ga (18,Steve Nye) I personally avoid commercial software for two reasons...related reasons. First, the code is 'sealed' so that I cannot get to it. I have, for instance, two drives and I know there isn't much demand for that, but I could modify the code if I could get to it, and that brings me to the second reason. The protection makes much of it very clumsy to use, re Zoom Pascal. My first experience with commercial software. ga (18,Charles Brannon) Ok. On the Amiga, I've been especially annoyed with CP, since I have 2meg of memory and want to multitask it (run many programs simultaneously--sound crazy?) It's the same if you have a hard disk. If copy protection is so easily broken, it's just a matter of time until it is non- CP. Epyx will probably not copy protect its productivity software, but for games we need that little extra bit of sales assurance, even if it only means we get 3 months of good sales before piracy eats it all up. I hear the same thing happend to Deluxe Paint. A few months after EA dropped CP, sales dropped SHARPLY. Not fair, eh? ga (18,Jake (Moderator) Bob, ga (18,Bob) I think the 100K to 6 million ratio is actually pretty good if you compare to records, a best-seller is maybe 3 million for 100 million players? Watch what would happen if then price was lower! ga 9:06:19 PM PST Thursday, February 5, 1987 Job User ID Nod Ch Tlk Handle --- ----------- --- -- --- ------------ 44 76703,4037 SEA 18 Buffer 65 76004,237 SMO 18 Jeff J. (Elec Arts) 75 73547,1475 QBA 18 NEIL 92 70007,2376 SMO 18 Charles Brannon 95 73765,1444 DCI 18 Bob 110 70366,1316 NAS 18 Steve Nye 150 76703,4244 DLQ 18 steve 155 76703,3051 GNC 18 Jake (Moderator (18,Charles Brannon) By the way, I heard a hot new rumor. Fisher-Price is coming out with a $120 black and white camcorder that uses ordinary audio cassette tapes. It's just for kids, though. Really! ga (18,Jake (Moderato stickr) The CO is over but as long as Charles want to stick around, the CO is still on. (18,Steve Nye) ? (18,Jake (Moderator) No more ? and !. Let's talk! (18,Sysop/Betty) ! (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Thanks, charles! (18,Bob) I'd like to hear about Charles' print program. (18,Jake (Moderator) Oh, first let me thank Charles for being here. You've done a great job of answering questions. (18,Charles Brannon) (Not that informal. Still under development). (18,Sysop/Betty) Charles, I would like to thank you for being our Guest here tonight on CBMART. We appreciate you being here. It was both enjoyable and informative. (18,Charles Brannon) It's great to be here!!! (18,Sysop/Betty) And thank you, Jake, for being an excellent Moderator tonight. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Okay, Charles, when will Epyx release "Gi Joe 2"?? (18,Charles Brannon) If we get a good design, sounds like a good idea. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) I'd love to, but I think some folks here might object. (18,Charles Brannon) Jeff, you'd love to what? (18,Jake (Moderator) And now that it's midnight, the West Coast people will crawling out of the woodwork. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) Do a good design for GI Joe 2! (18,Charles Brannon) Oh I see. Maybe one day you wil be an independent software designer/consultant. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) I'm having too much fun here right now. (18,Charles Brannon) I understand. (18,Bob) Well, Charles is it for the 64 or Amiga (your print program)? (18,Charles Brannon) The program is for the 64, Apple, and IBM. Actually, I can talk about it because we showed it at CES. The "print program" is "Create A Ca;endar." It's a program for creating customized monthly, weekly, and daily(appointment) calendars. (18,Jeff J. (Elec Arts)) bye y'all. Thanks Charles. (18,Jake) Bye Jeff. (18,Sysop/Betty) Knight, Jeff. (18,Charles Brannon) Bye Jeff. Call sometime and chat! By the way, Jeff, D&D is on Friday, if you're into it, that is, created by the users as it evolves? (18,Steve Nye) Charles... (18,Steve Nye) Charles, do you think there is any chance we will see software to grow with user support? ga Job User ID Nod Ch Tlk Handle --- ----------- --- -- --- ------------ 44 76703,4037 SEA 18 Sysop/Betty 83 76046,1135 SCS 18 William Seet 92 70007,2376 SMO 18 Charles Brannon 95 73765,1444 DCI 18 Bob 110 70366,1316 NAS 18 Steve Nye 150 76703,4244 DLQ 18 steve 155 76703,3051 GNC 18 Jake (18,Jake) I don't think Charles knows what CAD is. (18,Charles Brannon) Sounds interesting, but real hard to manage. (18,Steve Nye) No, we are working on a project here in the Sig. I started it with a small package of linked modules and we have been adding to it as time goes on, the structure of the program package allows it to be very easily modified so that each user has the option of adding items he wants in the package and putting it here to share. The package has become fairly impressive if I do say so myself. ga (18,Bob) Charles, you should check Steve's CAD out!! It's commercial-quality and getting better! (18,Charles Brannon) How does a company make money on shared software? (18,Sysop/Betty) Steve, you may we proud of it. (18,Steve Nye) The original package would be commercial but the additions would be shared...ala Geos. (18,Charles Brannon) Why don't you form a semi-private DL where you develop a product as you say for profit, and when you're satisfied with it, get a publisher. Continue to enhance it, and submit revisions to same. By the way, a company that allowed users to modify and share the modified program would see their copyright protection as the program became public domain. Then they could no longer sell it. It's a problem. To retain copyright protection, a company must aggressively enforce the copyright. (18,Steve Nye) Well, that may be one direction but I was wondering about the chance of open software in the future, modifiable by the user. (18,Steve Nye) Is Geos running that risk? (18,Charles Brannon) Is GEOS being publicly modified and distributed? (18,Steve Nye) On Qlink there is an entire Database devoted to it, the user additions. (18,Charles Brannon) If so, then unless Berkeley Softworks makes sure that no copyright infringement is going on, eventually GEOS will be public domain and there will be no more $$$ for them. ga (18,Bob) Steve do you mean something like PC-WRITE for MS-DOS and, of course, updates are $6.00 disk. (18,Steve Nye) Yes, something of a more open atmosphere as to modifications and additions. (18,Charles Brannon) There's another issue. For example, PrintShop has been out for years now, and it would be obvious that by now Broderbund should have been able to improve it. But they can't afford to, as long as there is lots of inventory of the existing PrintShop. If Broderbund enhanced PrintShop, they would get financially damaging MASSIVE returns. It's expensive to re-dup and re-pack revisions of software. That's why most revs are done q u i e t l y. ga (18,Bob) They did bring out the PrintShop Companion; the combination is unwieldly to use. (18,Jake) Charles: anything to say about new technologies? Like CD, laser printers, etc.? (18,Charles Brannon) Well, I'm skeptical about CDI. It lready looks too limited-- only 20 minutes of music an 10 minutes of video. The Atari laser printer was neat, but it takes a 2-meg ST to drive it--perhaps the only future for the ST. I think that some kind of high-res (300 dpi dots per inch) printer, not necessarily laser-based, will become quite common. Already, dot-matrix printers with 280 or more dpi are available for $800 or so. Except for misaligned dots, they're as good as a laser printer. Plus, LED printers use a potentially cheaper technology to create the image, and since personal copiers are driving down the cost of the engine, I think everybody will have a $500 laster printer soon. New stuff getting cheap enough to afford at an amazingly fast pace. Witness the Fisher-Price camera, for one, and the $500 Amiga. ga (18,Bob) I gotta go. Thanks Charles..... g'nite all! (18,Jake) Bye Bob. (18,Sysop/Betty) Knight, Bob. Nice to see you here. (18,Jake) I heard today about a 16 megabit chip...one chip. 16 megabits. (18,Steve Nye) Charles, where do you think the micro advance will stop is 16 bits going to be the standard? Or do you think the 80386 will replace it? (18,Sysop/Betty) Charles, when you say $500 Amiga, how much more to have a working System? ga (18,Jake) Get 8 and you have 16 Megs. (18,Charles Brannon) Arrrg line too long! The PC line is a plug-in moduler commodity. The 386 is just a faster 8088. It's expensive now, but won't be soon. I still think IBM machines are boring compared to machines like Amiga. No matter how fast. ga (18,Jake) But the 386 still uses the stupid DEF SEG, right? (18,Charles Brannon) Well, if it is running existing software it does, but it has a whole new world of direct addressing, I think. The Amiga is beautifully expandable. The software uses only one absolute address, and all other software is relative to this address. The OS is modular and replaceable, video and I/O independent. But no, there will be a new star not 8 years, but 2 years from now. I'm really worried that no set of hardware will have a long enough life to justify a lot of great software development. Just old things like Apple and IBM and the ][GS will finally obsolete old Apple ][ technology. Already companies like Epyx are supporting only 128K new Apples. (18,Steve Nye) That is why I am not hurrying to replace my 64, the life expectancy of the new gear. (18,Jake) Charles: most of the members have left, ae you ready to close down? (18,Sysop/Betty) Charles, thanks again for being with us tonight on CBMART CO. (18,Charles Brannon) Okay, I'll be going now. I'd be happy to do this again sometime in the future. It's great fun! (18,Sysop/Betty) Charles, you've got a date and I'll keep in touch. Thanks again. (18,Jake) Betty: we could do it in 4 months or 6 or 8. (18,Steve Nye) I'll let you get on with the sysop stuff...nite all. (18,Jake) Bye Steve. (18,Sysop/Betty) Beginning of Fall sounds good, right? (18,Charles Brannon) Okay! (18,Sysop/Betty) Knight Steve N. Thanks for being with us. (18,Charles Brannon) Knight, Betty (18,Sysop/Betty) <smile> Knight, Charles and Jake. (18,Sysop/Betty) I'm off to edit the buffers and Transcripts to uploaded into CBMART's Data Library 1. (18,Jake) Bye all. Logging off... 9:33:33 PM PST Thursday, February 5, 1987 And so ended our Formal CBMART COnference with Special Guest Charles Brannon of EPYX Software on 02/05/87.